Dick: Fifty-three or a decision by the lands…by the Hearing Officer Colonel (___). In the meantime, we were confound the loss of shenanigans on the part of Alpine County. One of which was that they sneaked in a bill of the legislature to repeal under the new (___) recognition stats which would have blanked out one of our claims and our State Senator Jess Mail had died. We wrote it out to our (____) in the senate and Bill Spear and I went to the Board of Supervisors and they authorized us to go to Sacramento and propose this bill or any other bills that might detrimental and at that time legislature had a new law requiring everyone to register as a lobbyist. So Bill Spean and I went to Sacramento as full-pledge lobbyists in the Alpine boundary dispute and appeared there before the committees. We were able to kill that bill. In April of that year, the Attorney General gave an opinion which surprised us all and that opinion was at the Lance Commission had jurisdiction to hear this matter alright but they also had jurisdiction and their first duty was to decide this case on the basis of the mutual recognition statute. In other words, to first hold hearings and determine whether there was in fact a line that had been established by mutual recognition and one of the things, of course, was assessment and taxation. So we had to back up and start over on some of our work. In the meantime, Bill Spear was still busy accumulating all of the historical data that he could possibly accumulate because we still didn’t know of what we might be mentioning have to try this case on the basis of the historical facts. Fortunately for us at this time, Mr. Spear was not feeling too well and grooming somebody to help himself because he recognized that he wasn’t…he didn’t feel like driving. Jim Reigning was assigned from the surveyor’s office to assisting and driving and assisting in research and Bill was turning over his facts and information and (___) methods of (___) to Jim and agreed to assist us. Mr. Spear did in gathering the tax information. We suffered a great loss on July 9^th, 1953 when Mr. Spear passed away. He died and our hearing was set for a new hearing on the tax question that was set for July 15^th. Fortunately, because of his foresight and that the assistance of Mr. Reigning…Jim Reigning was able to take Mr. Spears notes and tie them together and he was our star witness of that hearing on July 15^th. One of the things he did, Mr. Reigning, was prepare and assess the map for us and we used that map in the hearing to establish that Tuolumne County had in fact assess and tact every piece of the assessable and taxable property which was south of the line we claim that is the Clark’s Fort line to the exclusion of Alpine County. Now this was not an easy thing to do (___) (___) but bear in mind this is a National Forest where 95% of the lands are non-taxable, so it was a difficult job. And I’m going to ask Jim to go over to the board and just point out what he did and how he made that map. *flaw in tape* (3:41-3:43).

Jim: I would like to state the fact that in showing the areas, we had to write it up in color (__) (__) (__) (__) (__) real property and the yellow indicating (___) property through (___), green is the original paths that’ll reheating that to the United States and (___) will be (___) and (___) (___) (___) (___). I’d like to add that I personally would (___) the railroad (___) (___) (___).

Dick: Thank you, Jim. He’s very modest. That map will help us win the case, believe me. Probably in the presentation of that evidence in July…we…the attorney’s then got busy and did some more briefings and the matter of finally submit it to the hearing officer and he…they have a peculiar method of procedure and in October…October 7^th, 1953 he prepared what he called an advanced copy of a proposed report to the State Lands Commission on the boundary dispute. By this time it’s an (___) (___) Amador and Calaveras County had been dragged in by Alpine, so it’s was a four way fight going on. Fortunately, the three of us ganged up on Alpine so we had some help and this proposed report recognized that we had established a line by mutual recognition but because of this great gap in the Forest Service area, the hearing officer proposed to sort of compromise this thing and cut Alpine back to its original (___) and he thought it might be a good idea to run that line back up to Sonora Highway instead of the Clark’s Fort. This was his proposed after his advanced copy of his proposed report, but he wrote all the attorney’s saying, “Now I know some of you may object to this. I’ll hear your objections right (___) and then I will make a final report to the Lands Commission.” Well I was very much concerned with the (___) (___) because the press got a hold of this and was hard to explain what is an advance copy of the published report. That’s language I’ve never heard before or since. Anyways, sure enough the press got a hold of it and here’s the Modesto Bee (___) (___). This just happened to be in the file. October 19^th, 1953, Tuolumne County may have to surrender 32,000 acres, that’s on page 1…on page 2, “The hearing officer upholds claim with Alpine.” So in the press we had lost and I hot-footed it to the Board of Supervisors before they read the newspaper and I told them what was coming and that they hadn’t lost yet and we protested this proposal all three disputed (___) (___) Amador, Calaveras, (___) and Tuolumne and we…we reached and finally eventually hearing officer that he was in error and he made this final report to the Lands Commission on February 24^th and sustained our position all the way. On July 28^th, 1954 the Lands Commission (___) on the final hearing of the matter. Once again, we ran them through this underhanded problem all the time and that says there’s somebody in Alpine County had gotten one of those three commissioners who makes the motions to delay and stall this (___) indefinitely and his reason for this was this: that the District Attorney of Alpine County had, in the meantime, notwithstanding that Alpine…that the Lands Commissioner was going to hear this matter (___) mutual recognition following that opinion of the attorney general the District Attorney of Alpine County ran into the Superior Court and filed an injunction suit to and join us in proceeding in that matter and take the matter in to the Superior Court be held. They filed that in Alpine County and we immediately filed what we called it “the merit testing’s efficiency of the case” and the motion transfer was transferred to Newcomb County down to Stanislaus County. So we had a lawsuit pending too and so we had this lawsuit going and we had a hearing for the Lands Commission in July of 1954 and this one conviction it said, “I make a motion that we postpone this indefinitely and await the outcome of the lawsuit in Stanislaus County.” Well the problem with that was that our defense to that lawsuit in Stanislaus County was that Alpine County had acted prematurely that they exceeded to the jurisdiction to the Lands Commission. They had asked the Lands Commission to hear this and it had been heard as an administrative (___) and that they had not exhausted their administrative remedies and couldn’t come to court until it did. Well of course you could see where we would be if the Lands Commission postponed it indefinitely until the court acted and the court didn’t act because the Lands Commission hadn’t. We would have, excuse the ethnic phrase (___), the Mexican stamina. So anyway, we finally talked to Madalyn and they make their decision then and there and it was in our favor and so we have finally in December of 1954 obtain the final and successful decision from the Lands Commission and they ordered that the boundary line up the Clark’s Fort be surveyed and marked, but that it not be surveyed and marked until that lawsuit was finally concluded and that, of course, was alright. All rights of what was happening in Modesto. Our (___) was sustained but the judge gave them time to amend their complaint to file the new complaint (___) complaint. We had to go through the same procedure on map. We had full form hearing down there and the judge of that court sustained our position and said that Alpine had accepted the jurisdiction of Lands Commission and should…that that was the procedure and they had no business being in court and so we got a final judging on that in June 1955. In August Alpine County took an appeal. Now what I’m telling you about all this in the meantime everybody connected with the case and was left Jim Reigning, Starnwall, and Carlo came into the case, we were all collecting still all the historical data that we could accumulating this mass of evidence only (___) (___) play in this case. Now this appeal was scheduled for argument on January 16^th, 1957 and in the district court appeal. This is the case out of Stanislaus here. Well I have gotten restless in the meantime and running for judge and been elected Judge of Superior Court and had to take (___) on January 7^th, 1957 so I was (____) that no longer appeared. Board of Supervisors appointed Jim (___) and Jim was (___) as counsel in this case. He took over on January 7^th, 1957 and I’m going to call on Jim now to tell you what happened and how he won that lawsuit. Jim.

Jim: Thank you (___). On January 7^th was the date alright. That’s when I was employed by the Board who used special counseling in this matter. First thing I had was no researcher and in nine days I have (___) for the third district court of appeal in Sacramento. Fortunately, I had the very excellent resumes that Judge Carkeet would originally fall back on. We did, however, have moral arguments in Sacramento (___) in January and finally on March 29^th, 1957 the fifth court of appeal affirmed the decision of the trial court in Stanislaus County. Alpine County then petitioned for a week hearing, but that was denied. Finally took a petition to the State Supreme Court (___) (___) appeal all over again. After submitting grease on both sides, we had again had moral arguments and finally on April 8^th, 1958 the Supreme Court rendered its decision. This time, however, they reversed the decision that we file courts in Stanislaus County and reminded in fact to that county (___). The basis for it was that the courts had comparing jurisdiction that all time and that in this instance even though Alpine County had chosen, the State Lands Commission as the original forest. The courts never lost jurisdiction as such. They can proceed with the court proceedings without having to exhaust their administrative remedies. Ordinarily, once a matter is taken to court, the administrative (___) you must complete those matters. Then if you don’t feel that they properly have decided in this matter then you have the writer review in the (___) reports. Once you’re turned down or once confirmed or otherwise in the (___) reports then you file through canyon back into the court system in this instance the court said, “We always had conquered jurisdiction (___) factors Modesto (___) (___).” The court was…a court date was set and Judge (___) George Mallus was assigned to this matter in Stanislaus County; trial started on September 6^th, 1960. In the meantime, filed answers to the first minute complaint because finally had emerge and they’re not required to (___) filed answers but we’re still awaiting the decision of the court as to whether or not he met the file manager who answered had to be prepared with (___). Three trials broke out and finally on September 6^th, of 1960, we did get started. The trial continued until October 14^th, 1960 and some fire weeks’ worth of trial we (___) (___) (___) be decided at that time, was what was the intent of the legislature on March 16, of 1864 and what it meant by its natural and artificial monument set forth in the description of Alpine County. If I may, I’d like to continue on section two where Judge Carkeet left off on what fortunes of families were to give up their lands for the creation of Alpine County. The description of the legislature finally found or wound up as it follows: “the families of Alpine Counties shall be as follows commencing any point where the state line crosses the east summit of the Sierra Nevada Mountains then southerly along said some would point two miles west of James Green’s house. In Oak Valley Paul Johnson’s Peak then south westerly in the a direct line was Zeke Kirkwood’s house on the Amador in back of Turnpike Road excluding Zeke Kirkwood’s house. Then due south across the north fort the Mokelumne River to the road leading from West Point in Calaveras County to Big Tree Road near where they cut it. That’s easterly along set West Point Road to Big Tree Road that’s easterly in a direct line where the Sonora Trails breaks the middle fort to the Stanislaus River. That’s easterly along (___) Trail to the summit of the Sierra Nevada Mountain’s and then on back (___) the beginning. So you’re not having any survey description with which to contend with at the time of this trial, so really it boils down to in 1864 what did the legislature mean by the artificial monuments at James Green’s house, Kirkwood’s house, Middle Fork to Stanislaus River, and the Sonora Trial. In addition to that issue, we had raised special defenses of (___), ledges, and again the validation statutes that report or the faces of the opinion of the hearing officer (___) State Lands Commission. Though, back in the trial, we got the whole spectrum all over again. This time instead of being limited to validation statutes, everything’s an issue. This (___) pointed out to be really contentions of the respected counties on the map. The most northerly line being Tuolumne County’s and that the Sonora Trail was that one that went up to Clark’s Fort. Alpine County, at the trial, made its contention that that (____) line that comes down and strikes the Middle Fort to Stanislaus River usually statutory definition; hit point at or near Saucer Meadow or what’s now known as Saucer Meadow and any relief (___) relief creek. It was their contention that Relief Creek was a middle court for the Stanislaus River; mentioned in the (___) creating Alpine County then following on houses which would then show the claim of all put in red. Well the judge may have had an awful lot of help.

END TAPE

General Information

Interviewer: ?
Interviewee: ?
Name of Tape: Tuolumne-Alpine Boundary Dispute
When: October the 26^th, 1975
Transcriber: Dee-Ann Horn
Transcribed: 11/27/2017